The Nasty Battle Over The Mandatory Realtors’ Health Plan: The Response By The Association

The Ontario Realtor Wellness Plan has been initiated by the Ontario Real Estate Association (OREA). The plan required agents pay increased annual dues of $760 and participate in a mandatory wellness program. In this episode we talk with Stacey Evoy and Tania Artenosi of OREA about the backlash they’ve been receiving and why they brought in the benefit plan.

Listen For
10:30 The changes to the standard plan
17:49 Dental and eye care coverage
21:13 Opting out of the mandatory plan
32:26 Legal fees and fighting back

Guests
Stacey Evoy, Immediate Past President OREA, Broker Royal LePage Triland in London, ON

Tania Artenosi, President of OREA, and Broker/Owner Coldwell Banker The Real Estate Centre

 
Thanks to Feedspot for recognizing Sold in the 6ix as one of the Top Ten Real Estate podcasts in Toronto.

Desmond can be reached at:
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Transcript

Desmond Brown (00:00):

We have a battle on our hands here in our real estate industry, and it's all because of a well-intentioned benefit program that is being brought in for agents. It's called the Ontario Realtor Wellness Program, an undertaking by the Ontario Real Estate Association. That's our membership association. The program will increase our annual dues from $110 a year to $760 a year. It's not a lot of money. And the main sticking point is that we must all participate in this wellness program. It's mandatory, but we have a group of agents who are opposed to it. And in my last podcast I spoke to Barry Lebow who represents that group and they're not happy they're even willing to take this fight all the way to the courts today on Sold in the 6ix, we hear from the other side. My guests are two leaders of the Ontario Real Estate Association. Tania Artenosi is the president of the Ontario Real Estate Association and Stacey Evoy is the past president and the chair of the Realtor Wellness Task Force. Tania and Stacey, welcome to Sold in the 6ix.

Stacey Evoy (01:18):

Thank you. Awesome.

Tania Artenosi (01:19):

Thanks for having us.

Desmond Brown (01:20):

Oh, it's great to have you. Now, Stacey, I'll start with you as the chair of the task force. Did you ever think you'd get such a backlash for this program?

Stacey Evoy (01:30):

No. We knew that there would be some people who would be against for a variety of reasons. Their spouse might have coverage, they may have coverage elsewhere. They may look at it in terms of age. So we definitely knew that there would be some people that might be against, but we thought that the benefit for outweighed that.

Desmond Brown (01:57):

Yeah, and then I've said even to Barry Lebow and to Tania before we started here is that I'm for it. And I said the same thing to Tim Hudak when I interviewed him in the summer, but there are some things that in this program I guess that I'm going to question you on today. But before we get into that, a lot of the people in this group, and this group is like over 7,000 strong, their Facebook group anyway, and they're saying that they didn't hear anything about the program, that OREA kind of slipped it in, done quietly. Can you go over how this decision was made?

Tania Artenosi (02:36):

Listen, we had a robust plan to communicate with realtors and also to communicate with the member boards, right? These are the members' representatives, and we had a robust plan to give them the opportunity to see what was put together. We had done numerous town halls. We had had, I can't even tell you how many meetings before and after about the program to hear what member board questions were because ultimately the member board is representing their membership and so they're hearing, so the member's hearing from them and they're coming to us and we had a robust marketing plan. We had a robust communications plan to get out to them. I mean, nothing was hidden. There was no agenda that doesn't benefit anybody. It is our responsibility to communicate. And we did that and lots of boards took advantage of our communication and our town halls with them before the vote to get as much information as they could to relay to the membership. Sorry, my earbud fell out to relay to the membership. And so we did communicate and we've still been communicating as much as possible, very robust to the membership.

Desmond Brown (03:57):

Okay. So I know you're saying there was a robust campaign, but a lot of it I think was done through email to alert us as members. It was done through email. And you know what it's like as a realtor time, you're both realtors, we get over a hundred emails a day and some of the agents I've spoken to are asking me after they saw my last episode or listened to my last episode, they're saying, I had no idea about this. They're still saying that. So was there something that arria could have done to get the message out? Like in hindsight, you're seeing the backlash inside there at orea. Have you and your communications people spoken and said, chiefs, we should have done this. We should have done something different instead of just relying primarily on the email messages out advertising the town halls, advertising the wellness, because now you're doing a pretty good job. I'm getting all these emails now.

Stacey Evoy (04:55):

Yes, I'll answer that. So I think you can always look back on a process and say, what could we have done differently or what can we have done better? I think you can always look back on that and say that. However, we have always communicated with members via email, so to say, well, we should have shifted course in this case. Well then people would be saying, you always contacted us by email. You changed course this time because you didn't want to. See. I think the reality is realtors des want to sell real estate. They have their head down, and communication has been a problem with members for years and years. The reality of the situation is that we did communicate it with members. It was an open and transparent process. I think we did 16 town halls leading up to the vote for any boards that asked for it, and no stone was unturned. I was doing them up till the 24th hour of the June 20th vote. But I think the reality was that until the vote happened, we really didn't know in which direction would it go. We thought it would pass because of feedback and everything from our voting delegates and member boards. But until that sort of happened, that's when our major plan rolled out was then if it was a yes, how did we go forward? And if it was a no, then we heard from our membership loud and clear.

Desmond Brown (06:23):

Okay, so what we're hearing is that those members of our individual real estate boards, we have 34 boards across the province representing 96,000 agents. But some of these people who are opposed of saying, they don't speak for me, they don't speak for me, we had no idea about that. And I guess we get this in politics all the time, and now they're looking at saying, or they're saying, why can't we have individual votes? Put it out to the full membership for an individual vote. Tania, how do you respond to that?

Tania Artenosi (06:59):

So listen, Des, we're governed by the governance of OREA, which is the member boards are the ones that vote on behalf of their membership. So we at arria have the rules we have to follow, which is we bring the member boards together and the hope is that they've gone to their members and they are voting on behalf of their members. We don't set the parameters of voting. I know it's been out there, but we don't set the parameters of voting. The member boards have all cohesively agreed that this is the way it's supposed to be. And so this is the governance model that we follow, and I've been saying I respect everyone's opinion, but we have to follow the model in which we are governed by as an provincial association,

Desmond Brown (07:49):

I guess that would be a real huge governance and constitutional change. Okay. So yes, Stacey, I see you had your hand up back there.

Stacey Evoy (07:58):

I just wanted to add to that and just say the member boards have been our friends through this. With our working with our member boards as a partnership of orea, as an elected board of directors, we answer, we're here to be responsible to our members and to our memberships, and our conduit to them is through our member boards. So nothing was done that was untoward. We literally have five page Excel spreadsheet of all the communication that was done from the time we made the announcement that we were going to start looking into this until the June 20th vote. We felt like we were killing them with communication and member boards. Were not going to throw them under the bus because member boards were reaching out to their members. I know in my local area, our board reached out to us and did surveys and town halls and in other boards they brought their membership together and did straw polls. So the member boards also didn't fail in this regard, and this is the process that we have in place right now, the assembly model. So asking to change it when something doesn't go your way, it's just not really the way the world works.

Desmond Brown (09:17):

Yeah, sure. So what board are you a member of? Stacey?

Stacey Evoy (09:21):

I'm from London.

Desmond Brown (09:22):

Oh, you're in London and I'm here in Toronto. And to tell you the truth, yeah, I've had my head down. I've been working away. I have not seen a lot of the communication. I haven't 660 extra dollars a year fine with me. I look at it like, okay, I don't really need it. I have my wife's plan and I tag along on there were times I've been in the business over 25 years there times when I needed it, but I see the younger agents and I have a licensed assistant, and I think it's going to really, really benefit her. However, Barry said, and you may have heard of it, you may have listened to the last podcast. He said it's a crappy plan. Okay, so let's talk about the plan and some of the details of this plan and what us as members are going to get. So Stacey, about this, because you were on this task force, so can you explain some of this to us?

Stacey Evoy (10:19):

Yeah, Des, we think the plan is great. Honestly, the task force spent the most amount of time on the standard plan because it was what was going to be important to members than most people. Were going to end up with a standard plan, and this is where we focused like 98% of our energy. We made tons of changes. So for example, at first the plan when we were looking at it, it only included 30,000 in life insurance. Then we were able to get that extended to a hundred thousand. So the plan Des is excellent. It includes a hundred thousand in life. It includes a hundred thousand in accidental death and dismemberment. It includes 25,000 in critical illness, which I'll come back to because it's the key one for realtors. Then it includes the health benefit. So $750 in prescriptions, 750 in massage, acupuncture, physiotherapy, and 500 in medical supplies. And then it includes travel for 30 days, unlimited times a year, and there's a $2 million maximum on that per year. It includes unlimited mental health support and then virtual and then virtual health care. So say you're without a family doctor 24 7, you can access virtual healthcare with a doctor or nurse who can prescribe medication, do referrals to another specialist. So if you were without a family doctor, this would be a huge asset to someone.

Desmond Brown (12:01):

So I know that one of the keys to this was number one, signing up 96,000 members. Of course, the second thing on this was that there'd be no survey for the members about their health, and anybody with preexisting health conditions are fine to get into this plan as well.

Stacey Evoy (12:22):

So I'll talk about that. So it's a condition of OREA. We're a membership association, so any new product or service that we bring in, it has to be something that every realtor in the province of Ontario can use. So for example, with our health plan, if there had been a condition saying you're not eligible for enrollment, if you have a preexisting health condition, then it wouldn't be available to everyone. So that is why it has a mandatory nature. I'm sure that will be one of your questions was it was paramount to the program success for there to be no barriers to enrollment, you had to be able to enroll even if you had a preexisting condition and no medicals or health questionnaires would be asked. We also were able to get the program expanded. So where a typical commercial critical illness policy would end as at 60 or 65, because we know some of our agents are in that higher age racket, we were able to get that extended to age 70.

(13:36):

The travel, we were able to get that extended to age 80, and we were only able to do that des, because we're considered a group as our 96,000 where they can study. There's so many people in this age bracket, this age bracket, this age bracket, and this age bracket, and it makes us a defined group. If you start taking pieces away from that, you're no longer a group. So the first thing we would lose is we would lose the no preexisting conditions. So there would be barriers to entry and for OREA that would be a no-go.

Desmond Brown (14:16):

Okay. Okay. So Bob, back to what you had mentioned about critical care. Does this also include long-term disability?

Stacey Evoy (14:24):

No, it doesn't. So the critical illness does is what you think of. It's where you are diagnosed with one of 26 illnesses. So for example, a stroke or brain aneurysm or cancer or on the list, it's those 26 specific items where if you're diagnosed with one of those things, the insurer writes you a check for 25,000. So that is life-changing for a realtor who in the past, if you were a standalone realtor, you would have to have someone in your office cover for you so that you could continue receiving a paycheck. This will allow realtors to take even a month to say, I need to focus on my health right now, but I also need to worry about having food on my table for my family.

Desmond Brown (15:18):

I received an email last night from a fellow realtor about a fellow realtor who I've known for many, many years. I'm not going to mention his name because I want people to donate to this GoFundMe page for him or GoFundMe campaign for him and his name's. Noel Trumper knew him way back when he started with Darryl Kent real estate many, many years ago. He is suffering from progressive Parkinson's deceive and there's a GoFundMe page out there or him right now to raise money obviously. Would he be covered? Is that one of those, what did you say? 26 ailments.

Stacey Evoy (15:57):

So let me talk to you about that. This person is an example of who we're doing this for. So the fact that he already has a preexisting condition, he would not be eligible for the critical illness because he's already been diagnosed with that before. The program becomes effective on January 1st, but he absolutely will be eligible for all the other benefit, all of the prescription drugs, all of the paramedical, also the life insurance and the accidental death. So it doesn't matter if you have a preexisting condition. So there will be a benefit there for him. I have another example, Des of an agent up in Eastern Ontario who has stage four cancer. Again, she won't be eligible for the critical illness because it's already been diagnosed prior to, but she is not expected to live in 2024, and she will be eligible for that life benefit. I mean, it's not a benefit to her, but what a huge benefit to her family and her children.

Desmond Brown (17:07):

Yeah, I understand that. 25. Okay, so they're not eligible for that 25,000. I know that it's a great benefit to have that life insurance, but a lot of us don't want to die. We want have the benefits while we're living. And that leads me into, and lemme just take a quick step back. If anybody who's listening here who knows Noah or wants to donate to that GoFundMe, please do. Please do. Please help him. So anyway, that leads me, like I said, into a couple of the other things such as under this plan, dental is not covered and neither is eyecare. So that's where I've been speaking to some of the agents and they say, well, those are the critical things that we need on a daily basis. Why don't we have that in this plan?

Stacey Evoy (17:59):

Des, that's a great question, and honestly, we looked at everything from the get-go, but vision and dental are the two Halston expensive things in a health plan. When you start adding them into a health plan, you're basically paying for those items, dollar for dollar. For example, if we had those in the standard plan, the plan would've easily been an extra three or $400 and already the realtors are complaining that they don't like the 6 59. So it's in the optional plans. If they already have that coverage, they're going to be able to tear up and look at one of the optional plans and the dental and the vision are in all of those plans along with additional health benefit depending on what the person requires. I will also tell you, anyone who's looked into this plan, they have a plan with their brokerage right now. Tania will tell you, both her and myself have coverage out there. So we were doing this for others, we weren't doing it. It wasn't like a make work project because we didn't have insurance ourselves like you, we had insurance too. But people are coming to us and saying they're going to save $50 a month. They're going to save hundreds of dollars a month. This is going to help people, this is going to help realtors.

Desmond Brown (19:25):

So the plan that we have, the basic plan, it doesn't have the vision or dental, and then we are talking about a leap plant where you add on for dental, you add on what, 110 bucks for the year? Is that what it is? Something like that. Another a hundred and then another a hundred dollars for vision. So the dues could be close to a thousand dollars if you went for the extra, the dental and so on. The dental and the vision, correct.

Stacey Evoy (19:50):

That's right. They're not add-ons like that Des, where you click a box and it adds those on. You just choose which upgraded plan you want that fits your family. But all of them have dental and vision in the three upgraded plan.

Desmond Brown (20:05):

So those opposed, and maybe Tania, you can answer this, those who are opposed are saying, look, we don't want it to be mandatory. We don't want it to be mandatory. I understand that the larger the number, the better the annual premium is. I understand that, but they're saying we don't want to be mandatory. We don't want to be told what to do. This extra 660 bucks a year is really nothing to us. We want up. So why? No, just, okay, keep the fees up where they are. And then some of these ages, and I think a lot of them are my age, like I'm 64, I'll be 65 soon and older, say they don't want the plan. I'm going to get into some of the reasons, but why not? I mean, if we can top up for elite coverage and premium coverage, why can't we just have them opt out? We'll still take their 760 and they're opt out, that they can opt out and let's say at age 65 still the money goes into the plan and they don't get the coverage. Then have you considered that? I mean, maybe I sound like I'm crazy even suggesting this, but I thought about that on my drive in this morning before I spoke to you. Why not?

Stacey Evoy (21:22):

He been asked this and it is something that we're looking into, but it's a lot more complicated than that. So for example, I'm just going to give you an example that we've been asked about. So I have a great plan through my spouse and I feel that it's better than the standard plan. So I'm happy to pay for the standard plan. I understand that it's mandatory, but I want to be able to opt out so that I can just continue using my partner's benefits that are unlimited. Where it creates a problem is actually with that person because when they go to those partner benefits and they're utilizing those, they've already clicked off a box somewhere that says they don't have benefits elsewhere. So that's where it becomes problematic is in the technical part of it. The question has been asked to us, it is something that we're looking into if they want to still pay the fee, but they want to opt out, but there would still be something in it that we feel they would want to utilize.

(22:25):

I mean, does everyone around can say, I'm healthy today, but your health can change tomorrow. I can tell you I'm in my forties. I'm expecting to be around for a long time, but actuaries in the insurance world would tell you we lost a couple 40 year olds last week. So we just want this to be in place as a safety net. And you mentioned the GoFundMe. I do lots of GoFundMe every year for realtors who have suddenly passed away and their families can't afford the funeral expenses. This program is going to be beneficial for members and it's going to help realtors and their families.

Desmond Brown (23:07):

Okay, so back again to the plan and people who have existing plans. So what I'm hearing, and when I was monitoring their Facebook page, but I wasn't a member, I can no longer do that. Maybe they found that I was doing it and they cut me off. But anyway, there's information out there which I don't know is true or not. Number one, people are saying that, oh, if I opt into, well opt in, I have no choice but to take the OREA plan and now I'm losing all of the benefits from my spouse's plan, the existing plan that I have already or whatever. Is this true?

Tania Artenosi (23:46):

So I can speak to that. We've looked into that, right? So yes, we've heard those statements as well throughout the world of social media and email, and they come to us as to look into so far in all of our investigating this one particular statement that they're going to lose their current plan. We haven't seen anything like that. We haven't uncovered anything like that. If you have your plan and you use this and you have to use this plan, no, we haven't seen a detriment and we've asked everyone, show us your plan, communicate with us your situation, send us an email, give us the details. We're going to look into it with you. Our partner c b s is really good at digging deep into situations to help us find answers and solutions, and we've yet to have that come to us. So like I said in other comments and other conversations, send it to us. We want to work with you to help you in your situation and not make this a detriment. And to this day, I can say we have not uncovered anything where this statement of I'm going to lose my plan is true. So everyone's encouraged.

Desmond Brown (25:10):

Okay, so what you're saying though, yeah, so you're saying that if somebody who has an existing plan is actually for real saying, look, I'm going to lose all these other benefits, you want to hear from them?

Tania Artenosi (25:22):

Absolutely. Absolutely. We want to hear, send us your plan, send us the details, send us the situation. We're going to find out for you what's true and what's not true, and we're going to work with you to support you and help you. That messaging has never changed, right? We've been putting that out there and we've yet to have that situation come up where we haven't been able to find a solution.

Desmond Brown (25:48):

Okay, so Tania, let's talk about OREA quickly here. And the reason why I want to touch on this. First of all, you were a volunteer. Stacey was a volunteer with Ahe before becoming president, and as a president, of course, you clarified that to me today, that you do get a small salary as being president, even though you are a broker owner of multiple offices. Through all of this, I have, well, I've heard a lot of stuff, but basically a lot of these agents who are opposed to this mandatory are questioning actually even agents who aren't posing the mandatory aspect of this are questioning the relevance of oea. Like what purpose does OREA serve for us as members? And Mr. Lebow mentioned that there's a hidden agenda, that there's the income that OREA used to get from the licensing, which was taken away from them was huge. So they had to find other means of income. I mean, we're hearing things that people on OREA are getting kickbacks and all that, but anyway, we won't even talk about that right now. But what is the significance of rhe? I mean, all of this has opened up this whole can of worms about the relevance of our association.

Tania Artenosi (27:09):

I'm going to say this to start. I'm happy that people, realtors are finally paying attention to OREA because we've been around for a hundred years, and it's good to see that you finally care, right? You're in it, you're questioning, and that's not a negative. I'm so happy that we're finally getting membership attention because man, oh man, we work so hard. OREA works so hard to help this industry do good business. I mean, aside from O R W P, we've got trusa and the work that we've been doing for trusa. I mean, this is really going to affect the way realtors do business as they know it, and this is not

Desmond Brown (27:57):

Okay. So just for people who aren't realtors trusted, just quickly explain that for them.

Tania Artenosi (28:02):

The trust in Real Estate and Services Act, right? So these are the rules that realtors in the province of Ontario are governed by that we have to follow. We have a governing body, the Real Estate Council of Ontario, who oversees all of that. And these are the set standards that we have to follow to do good business in real estate. So it's extensive and orea worked with Ricoh, with the government to make sure that we bring the most robust plan to help Ontario realtors do good business and protect the consumer. And that's just it. Me saying it in one sentence, this is years and I mean years of work, and when realtors are out there doing business, it's our job as a rea to make sure they're educated and protected and doing good work. And we have not stopped. I wish it was getting more attention because it is so impactful to everything we do.

(29:04):

And so those are one of the things that we're working on. We're lobbying government, we're helping our realtors to keep affordability down, to get more homes built faster. These are things that impact our realtors. It impacts their clients. I mean, you want to talk about land transfer taxes? It's always something municipalities talk about. It comes up every year because it's easy money for municipalities. We are constantly fighting this because we know affordability for consumers is the most important thing, and they can't do that. We have standard forms. We need a cohesive set of documents that we all work from, that everyone has the same level playing field. This is no easy task. I will tell you, I've chaired that committee. Stacey has chaired that committee. The list goes on, and then the member services, the education we offer, the volunteerism that we offer, the list goes on and on. And it is the nitty gritty that members may not see every day and may not pay attention to every day they are now. I'm appreciative of that, and I hope that they utilize the services that area has to offer because we've been offering them for a hundred years.

Desmond Brown (30:19):

If an agent does not pay their arre dues, they are going to be cut off from their member board and they will not have access to the M L Ss any longer. Correct. Okay. So I know there are a lot of realtors out there who are talking about parking their licenses. There are some out there that are even talking about starting their own M L S, which I have to giggle about. So, and sorry, I got to make you get mad at me for even bringing this up, but that's ridiculous. But anyway, is this a way of weeding out those part-time agents or those agents who are aging, which is what Barry says, it's age discrimination.

Tania Artenosi (31:04):

Absolutely not. No way. If this is your profession, whether it's full-time or part-time, you're in it, we want you to be in it. We're not asking anybody to do anything, like we're not asking anybody to leave. This is a benefit for all members. There is something in there for everyone. I've heard the ageism thing. It's not ageism, okay? Because there's something in there for everybody. And in no way, shape, or form, are we looking for anyone to get out of the industry? Absolutely not. There's good realtors out there, there's strong realtors out there. We all have the same intention. We want to help our clients find a great place to call home wherever that is in this province, and we want them all to keep doing that. So yeah, I'm an emotional type of woman. Can't lie. It hurts me when I hear those things. That is absolutely not the truth. We see this as a benefit, whether you're, I don't care how old you are, this is for everybody. So yeah, it hurts me to hear that. It bothers me. Yeah.

Desmond Brown (32:19):

Okay. Yeah. You Kim? Yeah. Okay, so we're just about ready to wrap up here, but just a couple of other quick things. You know that this group has raised almost a hundred thousand dollars for legal fees. They want to fight this. They're going to want to take this all the way to the court. Mr. Lebow said that they wanted to have a meeting with OREA. Has that meeting been set up? Are you open to meeting with them? For starters,

Tania Artenosi (32:47):

We're here. We're here. We're available. We've been talking to members. We've been talking to member boards. We come on these podcasts to send the message. Everybody Des knows where to find me. I'm not going to lie to you. Everybody knows

Desmond Brown (33:03):

Yeah, but when you sit down, will OREA sit down as OREA, and you and Stacey and the other members of OREA sit down as a group as representatives of Arria with this group who opposed the Mandatory Benefit Program? You'll sit down with them before it gets really messy in courts.

Tania Artenosi (33:26):

Everyone who's asked us to sit down with them, we've sat down with them, they would be no different.

Desmond Brown (33:30):

Okay. And is this a done deal? Is this a done deal? Is a going to change their minds at all?

Tania Artenosi (33:39):

We as OREA don't have that opportunity to do that. It was voted by the assembly in favor, 80% in our June 20th meeting. We are fulfilling the will of the assembly as it was voted in favor. So like I said before, we get asked to do things, investigate, look present member boards vote in favor or don't. If they do, we move forward with it. If they don't, we don't. But we as OREA cannot change. The course of action that we're in. The program has been approved, and we are moving forward to implement the program January 1st, 2024.

Desmond Brown (34:19):

Okay. So has a contract been signed with an insurance company yet to go forward? And you're saying, yeah, I see Stacey nodding yes, there has been.

Stacey Evoy (34:28):

Yes. Does some of them have been signed and some of them are just in the final stages. But again, just to reiterate what Tania said, we got our marching orders from the assembly. It was approved by an overwhelming majority, and our job is to accept the will of the assembly unless we're told otherwise.

Desmond Brown (34:49):

Okay. Great. Ladies, thank you so much for joining me today on Sold in the 6ix. I hope this answers some of the questions to our members and to the consumers out there who may have a realtor who opts out or ops out of ario by not paying their dues, you are not going to have representation on the ML S your age is not going to be able to put your property on the m l s. Your age is not going to be able to search the m l s, even though some of them said they'll use House Sigma. But anyway, Tania Artenosi is the president of the Ontario Real Estate Association, and Stacey Evoy is the past president and the head of the task force for the Wellness Program. Ladies, thank you very much for joining me now. Stay with us.

Stacey Evoy (35:29):

Thank you.

Tania Artenosi (35:30):

Thanks so much for having us.

Desmond Brown (35:32):

And that's our latest episode of Sold in the 6ix. Well, hopefully these two sides can get together and work something out. I mean, I have never seen such a nasty battle at all of my 25 years in real estate, so let's hope this all works out. I'd like to thank my producer, Doug Downs of Stories and Strategies for this latest episode. And if you'd like this episode, please subscribe, leave a rating and a review, and feel free to send it on to a friend. If you need to get in touch with me, you can email me at desmondbrown.ca and make sure you follow me on all of the social media platforms, and my handle is Des in the 6ix. Until next time, I'm Desmond Brown.