Protecting Realtors: Self-Defence Strategies for Safety

Realtors meet people every day and naturally are focused on trying to make the best impression. They don’t know the people they’re meeting with, they’re total strangers really. Over the years there have been cases where realtors have been attacked and even killed.

Rob Andress saw this during his 38-year career as a real estate broker. Self-defence and safety best practices were a huge gap. 

Today Rob and his wife Beth travel the country helping real estate agents equip themselves with self-defence skills  and best practices to enhance their personal safety and decision-making during potentially dangerous encounters. 

Guest: Beth and Rob Andress
https://streetsafeselfdefence.com/
Email https://streetsafeselfdefence.com/contact/
Facebook
LinkedIn

Desmond can be reached at:
Web site https://inthe6ixrealestate.com/
Email des@desmondbrown.ca
Twitter & Instagram - @desinthe6ix
Facebook page 

Transcript

Desmond Brown (00:00):

As a real estate agent, we meet a lot of people. We get calls to go into people's homes for market evaluations. When we have listings, we get calls from people who want to see the properties we have for sale. We don't know these people who call us. They're strangers, and we trust that they say who they are, that they're legitimate buyers looking for a home. We do our best to qualify them over the phone or by email. Then we meet them at the property and take them in for the showing. But sometimes these people who want to see these homes and it's rare, are not good people. Over the years, there have been a number of instances when realtors have been attacked by people who have pretended to be buyers. Some of these realtors have been killed, yes, murdered. And in most of these cases, the attacked and murdered realtors were women. I'm Desmond Brown, and today on Sold in the 6ix, we speak to a couple who offer self-defence courses to corporations and realtors. And even if you're not a real estate agent, you will want to hear what they have to offer so you can protect yourself.

(01:20):

Rob and Beth Andress are with Street Safe Self-Defence, a mobile self-defence company that will come to you. Robin, Beth, welcome to Sold in the 6ix you've come to me today.

Rob Andress (01:31):

Thanks, Des. Great to be here.

Desmond Brown (01:33):

Yeah, so great to have both of you. So Beth, hello.

Beth Andress (01:38):

Hi.

Desmond Brown (01:39):

Yeah, hi there. We just had Rob's voice there. We want to let everybody know we've got We're we're lucky to get both of you today.

Beth Andress (01:45):

I'm here with you too. Yes.

Desmond Brown (01:47):

Great. And I remember meeting you at Realtor Quest a few weeks ago, a real pleasure meeting you, and I found it quite amazing. You offer self-defence, you're not huge. So I'm going to find out what type of punch you pack today.

Beth Andress (02:00):

You got it.

Desmond Brown (02:03):

Great. So you two offer self-defence courses to a lot of different people. I'm just wondering, how did you get into offering it to corporations and more particularly realtors?

Rob Andress (02:15):

I'm a real estate broker, Des and I bring 38 years experience to the industry. And I had one of my own employees experience an issue probably 10 years ago anyway, inside of a vacant home with a husband and wife. And it was really on that day that I started wondering about this thing about violence within the real estate industry and just what it was. And it wasn't much longer after that timeframe that another realtor within her board was experienced a full out attack. From a man she had been dealing with. And interestingly enough, that same man threatened my life three years later when I sold a property under a power sale.

Desmond Brown (03:14):

Oh my goodness.

Rob Andress (03:16):

So violence within our industry as realtors is something that is there. It is. It's something that many leaders within our industry are skewed on the understanding of what it is and how it happens.

Desmond Brown (03:32):

Rob, go back to that first incident you were telling me about Yes. With one of your realtors, and she had an incident with a husband and wife.

Rob Andress (03:41):

Yes. And that's another misunderstanding that Beth and I are very clear on today. Our industry has a belief that the largest threat is only from the male species, and that's the farthest thing from the truth. We have encountered many realtors across Canada who have been targeted and lured by husband and wife teams, partners, they come in individuals. I mean, there's the crazy part of it, Des, there's no profile for these individuals. Interesting. I was asked that question from a director of a board a number of years ago, and his frustration over my answer, I believe as created a riff in our relationship. But there is no profile. The realtor is the profile. Yeah. It is the realtor through the way they do their job, through how they're contacted, through how easy it is to get a professional to come to a location of your choosing at the time of your choice.

Desmond Brown (04:51):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So just tell everybody what happened in that case, just so people get an idea what could happen to us. I mean, we're the big wigs out there making lots of money and all that, but we are vulnerable. We getting blind phone calls, we're getting emails coming in, and we want to sell the properties and we leave ourselves completely open sometimes. So what exactly happened that first case?

Rob Andress (05:20):

Well, what happened in that situation is she had met them on two different previous occasions, and this was the third viewing on the same home. The property was vacant, but don't, again, that's a skewed understanding within our industry. This property was specifically vacant and my realtor ended up walking into the basement with the mail while the wife stayed on the main level by the kitchen. And when she entered into the utility area down where the furnace was, this individual started physical contact with her and started making sexual comments and lewd comments to her while the wife was above above him in the kitchen. I ended up receiving a phone call from her in a state of panic. And we all believe that I can call 9 1 1 and the bat light goes up and the cavalry comes.

Desmond Brown (06:23):

Only If they answer.

Rob Andress (06:24):

Yes. Yeah. Well, and then if you're triaged in the right order with this specific incident when I arrived at the property, and unfortunately it took me 25 minutes to get there, and I need to share that fact that these attacks will happen against you in as quick as three one hundredths of a second.

Desmond Brown (06:47):

Yeah Definitely.

Rob Andress (06:47):

So it doesn't become a case anymore where you have an opportunity to reach out to someone. It doesn't become a case anymore. You even have the opportunity to call 9 1 1 because that's not even in the playbook anymore. Yeah. Okay. So I mean, I don't want to get too far into the situation on that, just more for privacy than anything, but sure. That incident affected that professional dramatically.

Desmond Brown (07:17):

Wow. Okay. She sure would.

Rob Andress (07:20):

She went through a period of spiraling in her own production issues with feeling comfortable going in into properties. So the trauma effect of these issues, I mean the physical effect is one thing, but we forget to realize something here. The physical aspect of these attacks, if there's actual injuries, will heal two, three weeks, you're looking a million bucks again. But the trauma aspect of it is something that will carry on for the remainder of your life.

Desmond Brown (07:50):

That's for sure. Now, Beth, what role do you play with the company and do you have a real estate background as well?

Beth Andress (07:57):

So I don't have a real estate background. I decided to join Rob as often as I could for the realtor sessions very shortly after he started doing them, when probably about six, eight years ago now, I started taking Jiujitsu lessons just for a sport, just for something to do. And man, did I ever do good. I worked all the way up to my green belt and then hit my brown belt, and I was taking guys that were twice my size and flipping them over my shoulder and onto the mats and when nobody was going to mess with me. And then I was assaulted.

(08:43):

And during the couple of days afterwards, I processed what had happened to me and the confidence and the skills that I had learned for self-defence were not there for me at the time that I needed them. Oh, wow. Reason being is because there are so many finite movements, your body doesn't know how to react under that adrenaline dump. And because when you're learning in a martial arts dojo, you have some willing participants with you. Yes. Your sparring partners, your understanding is that you both have to go to work the next day. So I believe I had overestimated my ability to defend myself.

Desmond Brown (09:36):

Interesting.

Beth Andress (09:38):

And as Rob was going out and meeting these people who realtors are anywhere from age 20 to and up, let's say.

Desmond Brown (09:51):

Exactly. Yeah. My uncle's, he was like over 80 years old when he finished selling.

Beth Andress (09:55):

There you go. And we all vary in size and stature and physical ability, conditioning, all that kind of stuff, but we all deserve to be able to defend ourselves and go home safe at the end of every workday. Yes. So learning along with Rob and certifying in the techniques and the understanding of how predators work and being the spouse of a realtor, I was well aware of many of the issues that the profession faces. And I really like going out and letting people know that regardless of your size and your stature, there are so many things that you can do that will change the way you do your job and make sure that you get home safe at the end of every single day.

Desmond Brown (10:46):

Yeah. So after that assault, like you said, you didn't do as well as you could have based on your training, what attitude did you take on after that?

Beth Andress (10:58):

Well, like Rob says, the mental effects, that kind of thing stays with you for a little while for sure. But I, at that point was very determined moving forward, that was not going to happen to me again ever again, again, ever again. And B, if there was anybody else out there that I could help encourage and just talk to about being able to manage yourself regardless of your size or your stature does, I'm just, I touch five foot one barely, and I'm just a smaller statured person. And that I just think that everybody needs to know that for one reason or another, you may be a soft target and for sure I will never be a target again. And that was the attitude that I moved forward with

Desmond Brown (11:54):

For sure. Quick. So what do you teach people then about that psychological part of it? We all get scared. I know. I've been in situations where the adrenaline starts to flow, whether it was playing in sports and getting into a fight or just on the street, somebody confronting me, getting into a confrontation in that way, the adrenaline starts to flow. And how do you channel that, do that to defend yourself?

Rob Andress (12:26):

Well, trauma, trauma informed at that moment of fear is one of those things where that really set me on my search because I've met many people today now who have been trained in multiple forms of martial arts, street fighting, all of that other kind of nonsense. And when fear and adrenaline becomes one of those things where it overrides the human need for survival and that becomes the problem, we can't deal with that level of adrenaline. We can't deal with that level of cortisol being dumped into our body without being provided with very simple natural human reflex response at the time of fear that we use in order to defend ourself. And that's what Beth and I do. We have studied the fear response, the natural human response to fear, the natural reflex response when someone experiences that high level of adrenaline and cortisol and carbohydrates being burned and what they do at the moment of fear. And we have built a tactile defence system around the human natural flinch response.

Desmond Brown (13:58):

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Rob Andress (14:43):

On top of that, I, I don't want to for our podcast to get entirely taken up with contact skills because that's the last resort that we ever want people to get into. Yeah,

Desmond Brown (14:57):

Sure. And I can see that too. My son took karate, got up to the brown belt level, and his instructor, the first thing he taught them was to run.

Rob Andress (15:10):

Yes.

Desmond Brown (15:11):

That's what he taught and value

Rob Andress (15:12):

The skill. But you know, mentioned that, and running is something I'm a big believer in.

Desmond Brown (15:20):

Oh Good.

Rob Andress (15:20):

Big believer in that.

Desmond Brown (15:21):

 You survived to tell the story the next day, which is great.

Rob Andress (15:24):

Absolutely. And the part of the problem within our industry though is we are provided with a level of indoctrination where we believe we can't run where we believe when we are facing an individual inside of a property who is either stealing, robbing, or threatening a female realtor sexually or who has attacked a male realtor for resource for taking valuables off of him. We are put in a position now where it's been indoctrinated into us through RECO, the Ontario Real Estate Association, and even some levels from a OREA where the realtor is under a false belief that they have to stay inside of a residence and protect that individual's residence at the cost of their own safety. And we wouldn't, you know what, Beth and I wouldn't have met the victims we've met, if they just understood a very simple terminology, it's get the f*** out.

Desmond Brown (16:27):

Yeah,

Rob Andress (16:27):

Exactly. And if you're facing it, there's no reason for you to stay there. Correct. And sorry, baby, I

Desmond Brown (16:33):

Just, that's, yeah,

Rob Andress (16:35):

It's just what it is.

Desmond Brown (16:36):

No, I get, okay. So Beth, what are some of the signs that people can read from a possible predator when you're in a situation like that? Because it's just not, I mean, things happen very quickly in just pounce on you, but is there anything that they can see in this person before this happens? The attack happens.

Beth Andress (16:59):

So some of the things that we talk about des are the, they're called pre attack indicators. And if you are tuned in, if what to look for, and you can call them red flags and not every single red flag means you have to G T F O right away. Yeah. But there's some red flags for sure. So one of the things that really shocked me, just probably in the last year and a half or so, the amount of times that we've heard it, I guess since Covid and showings opened back up to a level where they were before and we had to give it a name, and I'm going to call it body brushing, and it is a form of sexual desensitization, which means you're receiving those uninvited touches can start with just a gentle touch on the arm. It can be a tap on the shoulder, it can be coming closer to you are giving them permission every single time they move in or they touch you. Or we even have many female realtors who have explained to us someone moving behind them and actually brushing their body right across the back of their body. And so those over-friendly physical touches are definitely something to be aware of.

(18:40):

So many of them, people demanding to see a property immediately today at five o'clock. And if you are not going to, I'm going to buy it. I have cash, I'm this, I'm that. And if you're not going to buy it or show it to me, I will find somebody else who does.

Desmond Brown (18:58):

Somebody who, yeah, there's a big ticket. If we're looking at million dollar properties and that happened to that young lady out in British Columbia going to show that million dollar property and she ended up getting killed in it.

Beth Andress (19:08):

Yeah. Unfortunately, yes. There's just showing up for thinking that you are showing a property to one person and there are two people there.

Desmond Brown (19:19):

You show up.

Beth Andress (19:20):

Yeah. Yeah. There's all kinds of different things, but also the body gives off signs too. So one of the physical responses that a predator will emulate is the quick movements and that adrenaline dump that they get just before they enact their plan. So things like grooming where they're constantly moving their hat back and forth, they're rubbing their arms, they're putting their hands down to their sides, rubbing their legs, that kind of thing. There's quite a few things you can look for. We have a full two hour session on pre-act indicators

(19:20):

Desmond Brown (20:01):

 Yeah. We won't be able to get through it here in this short podcast. Okay. So that's great. And I know my colleague Jennifer, she has a system that if somebody calls and says they want to see a property or emails, she'll Google them first to check them up to see who they are, if they really are who they say they are. And then what she does is that when she's showing, she's already arranged with her partner Sylvie, and she says to Sylvie, okay, I'm showing this property at six o'clock. Okay, please call me at about five after six and we'll have a conversation. And the conversation will be something like this. Sylvie will say, oh, Jen, the other person who's in the room will not know that it's partner, but they'll think it's another colleague and say, oh, is it possible you can go and get to this other property? You have somebody else that wants to see it. So if they overhear part of the phone call, they'll think it's another realtor calling. And Jen will say, if it's a situation that she's not comfortable with, she'll say, yes, I can do that right away. And she'll stop the appointment that she's on.

Beth Andress (21:14):

So I'm going, right. Yeah. I'm just going to jump here and applaud Jen for having a safety protocol and having that at the front of her mind. But I think between Rob and I, we can offer her a few tips that might improve her safety protocol just a little bit.

Desmond Brown (21:31):

Okay. So we're going to have her take your course then.

Beth Andress (21:34):

Absolutely. And if she's listening, Jen, I just want to tell you, if you are showing a property and you are that uncomfortable or feeling like something might not be right and encouraging somebody to call you and help you with an exit strategy, I'm going to empower you today to create your own exit strategy. I want you to be able to look at that client and say, oh my gosh, I forgot the listing sheet in my car. I'm going to go get it. I'll be right back. I'm going to empower her to be able to say, I'm very sorry, I just got a message from my son's school. He fell off the monkey bars. I have to cancel this showing, I'll call you to rebook, but I have to leave right now. Because by the time she is able to tell someone she's uncomfortable, she needs help, whatever was going to happen to her has probably already happened to her by the time someone decides that they're going to come to her rescue.

Desmond Brown (22:36):

And then Rob, like you said, here we are as realtors wanted to protect the property. So get out. Okay. It's okay.

Rob Andress (22:46):

And it absolutely is. I mean, as a professional realtor, your safety has to become forefront above everything. And something that I want to share just on that topic about your partner, something that we have learned now over the last seven years is that oftentimes these predators, these attacks don't happen on the first showing. Oh, what we are finding now, as many of them will actually attend 3, 4, 5, and six appointments with the realtor. And what's happening during this time is they're risk measuring themselves against their own victim. They're building trust within their victim. And that becomes something on that I just want to share with everybody. And please understand, we view these people as clients because we're good people and we want to do the best for 'em at all times. But something you can never forget. They're strangers. They're strangers to you, they you don't know them.

(23:48):

And we now know today that the process of this rarely happens. First appointment and then the attack, it generally happens over a succession of appointments where the predators actually starting now to understand how the realtor works. They're starting to measure their own risk against them. They're starting to build trust within the realtor. Then what ends up happening, the realtor starts walking into homes, they start turning it back. They may have a habit where they look out a kitchen window on a regular basis with their back to the individual, and then it happens. So for us to think that it just happens for showing or first appointment, then the attack happens, then they're safe after that. It's not true. I can't tell you how many members across Canada we've met who have been dealing with people on 5, 6, 7 appointments, and then all of a sudden when an opportunity opens the door, they get attacked.

(24:48):

Wow. So it really becomes something in our industry and the members within it don't have an understanding of how it happens. And that when Beth and I go into boards and associations across the country, that's the message we try and provide is education around keeping yourself safe on every appointment that you're in. I, we met a guy in Western Ontario, and this is going to stun you. He got punched in the mouth over in offer presentation from the client because the client didn't like the price mean it goes on from there. Right there we know of a realtor was a kidnapped out of a home. So there's multitude of different things that happen here. And it really becomes something where as a professional realtor, we need to up our game on situational awareness on how to properly conduct appointments because we're not taught that at any time.

(25:49):

And a real key factor that no one ever tells us about when we get that ticket to head out in the public is that we are dealing with the two most anxiety filled things that the human species live with money and relationships and we're right in the middle of it. And no one's ever told us how to deal with that. No one's ever told us what social violence is and how we need to understand deescalation skills during social violent encounters, let alone anti-social violence. Which I mean those individuals, they're there. I mean, the best that we, Beth and I have been able to determine right now from the members that we've met across the country is about 6% of active members have faced these people. And these are individuals who target lure for either sexual reasons, process predators, or for valuables resource predators.

Beth Andress (26:56):

And with that, sorry,

Desmond Brown (26:58):

Go on beth.

Beth Andress (26:58):

I just want to remind you that our society is really changing right now. And our socioeconomic gap has widened. The available supports and the available resources for people are certainly not what they used to be. And crime rates are going up in cities, and people feel that sometimes it's hard for us to put ourselves in that position of needing that next a hundred dollars to feed our family, or the lengths that people will go to find that easy target because people are really, there is a part of our population that are really in survival mode all the time.

Desmond Brown (27:47):

Yeah, that's so true. Now you offer your services to corporate corporations. So you do corporate training, you do high school defence or high school of course, and general. So I mean, we're coming close to the end of this podcast, but just tell me, most of my listeners are not realtors out there. And can you enlighten them on how they could benefit from what you have to offer, say to people with corporate training or just women self defence.

Rob Andress (28:23):

Within our corporate world, we end up doing a lot of situational awareness training in corporate environments. We do a lot of behavior identification within in corporate environment. And when we're doing that type of work, we're letting people know that it's okay to identify someone who is a risk to them, and we educate them on what they need to do. And for far too often, especially males, the male ego is the one that, that's a crazy thing where we think we can step in and deal with every situation that faces us. And Beth, and I know that that's not the truth. So within our corporate environment training, it's based around situational awareness. Now in our high school training, and this is something we are really, really proud of, I'm not quite sure of the number, if it's about 80 high schools that we deal with in Ontario right now.

(29:21):

And we go in and we teach students the reality of violence management. We talk to them in a way that their parents and educators have never been able to talk to them. And we build trust and relationships with these young people and we educate them on how they need to manage violence from social violence within the hallway to dealing with violence, within dating, to dealing within violence at parties and dealing with predatorial violence on the street. Our is, again, I'm second to none. We carry women through understanding, again, situational awareness, violence prevention, social deescalate or deescalation within social violence. And we also share with them a stark reality that close to 90% of the attacks that happen against them are going to come at them from people they know, which is really difficult for a woman to understand and more difficult for a woman to deal with when she's facing an individually that she knows or is supposed to love her, and now she has to defend herself against them. Okay. So we do some really, really empowering work.

(29:21):

Desmond Brown (30:39):

Oh, sorry, I just to add, and I'd have another question for you. So go ahead, Beth. Add to that.

Beth Andress (30:43):

 I just want to jump in with the high schools. This year has been super interesting with our high school courses because a huge part of what we focus on is conflict resolution and communication, deescalation, ego and that kind of thing. And for two years, these kids were at home learning behind computers and they weren't interacting or learning that human interaction that they should have been learning at that time in their life and their development. So we're finding a lot of the younger high school classes that the grade nines and tens really benefit from that deescalation, that conflict resolution, those communication skills that stop those physical altercations before they even start. And it, it's always been a focus, but we're really finding right now, after two years at home, it it's something that kids are benefiting from. Is that opportunity.

Desmond Brown (31:46):

We've all had to re-socialize after these two years. We really have.

Beth Andress (31:51):

They used to say it was one in 200 people that were on the verge of exploding every single day. And I think during covid that probably went down to one in 50 to one in 75. And there's a lot of law enforcement officers that will back that up. So it's been interesting.

Desmond Brown (32:11):

And then as we wrap up here, you talked about, Beth, you talked about the changing world that we're in, and one of the big changes has been online dating. So I'm sure you touch on the online dating or actually the actual face-to-face dating after they've met online and what to watch for. And it's usually women that have to watch out, unfortunately. And men are, I hope we don't have to edit this out, but men can be dicks. So women are always subjected to this, whether, I mean, you talked about the brushing and by, I mean, that was the workplace. And then if a woman laughs because she feels uncomfortable, all of a sudden the guy thinks there's like, oh, there's my signal to move in on her. So what kind of things do you tell women who are there, or even people who are dating online and then meeting people?

Beth Andress (33:06):

So number one, I'm going to say always be very mindful of the amount of personal information that you are giving out to people that you don't know. That includes photographs, even of your home, your vacations, all that kind of stuff. I think on those apps, sometimes women try to sell themselves with photos that maybe they wouldn't openly share with everybody else. So you really have to be mindful of who it is that you are inviting into your life. But my biggest thing for this de is going to be to say, follow your intuition. We are the only species on earth. Humans are the only species that do not listen to their intuition. 100% of the time. We override our intuition as being paranoid or brushing it off as, oh, it's probably nothing. And if that's something that you do as a woman, if you're listening, please stop doing that. Your intuition is a gift it was given to us so that we could escape dangerous situations before they happen. If something doesn't feel right, please put in place what you need to ensure your safety.

(34:25):

That there's just so many of those gut feelings that people put behind them. And even on days like nine 11 or some of the larger attacks, the mass attacks that we've seen, some of the people that were interviewed will say, I knew something was off that day. Or they had that twinge of intuition. So for those women that are meeting people that they don't know, absolutely follow your intuition. Don't, one of the most important things I can leave you with is that niceness is not a human characteristic. Niceness is a strategy. It is an interaction plan that people use to get what they want. And I know that doesn't sound very nice, but it's true from the time we are little, from the time we're toddlers, we're taught be nice. And that person will want to be your friend, be nice and share your toys, be nice.

(35:30):

And they'll, they'll want to be friends with you. And we see a smile and we think that automatically someone is friendly and nice, but niceness does not equal goodness. So please listen to your intuition. And if you have that feeling in your tummy, that is not paranoia. Paranoia is when the thought gives you the feeling in your tummy. If your tummy fires off that something isn't right, it probably isn't. And you know, you'll, you're not going to get that Aha, I was right moment because you've avoided a situation. But I'm going to tell you that your intuition is there to keep you safe. Please listen to it. Right.

Desmond Brown (36:13):

Wonderful. What a wonderful way. Yeah. What a it is you are. And what a wonderful way to wrap this up. So again, tell us your website so people can check you out and maybe even in go to one of your courses.

Beth Andress (36:28):

Our website, which has kind of just been revamped and I'm pretty proud of it right now, is www dot street safe self defence. defence is spelled with a C, the Canadian Way, and Rob's phone number and contact information is there as well. And we are always open to any questions or a contact that people might want to make.

Desmond Brown (36:51):

Yeah, wonderful. And Doug told me, and Doug, you can jump in here that the two of you are going to be starting your own podcast.

Rob Andress (37:01):

We are. And we are really looking forward to it. I think we, we've made a decision that we're going to really specialize it towards realtors and realtors needs and hoping that we can get a reality message out to help them. What I haven't yet in the 38 years in my industry, met a bad realtor, but unfortunately I've met far too many of them who have been become victims. So I just want her message to be given. And Beth and I believe that going the podcast route is going to be the answer to help us with that.

Desmond Brown (37:39):

Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. Well, Rob and Beth, thank you so much for joining me today. This was so insightful. And listen to what Beth says out there, not just the women. Listen to that intuition go with your gut. Thank you very much for joining me.

Rob Andress (37:56):

Thank you, Des,

Beth Andress (37:58):

Thanks for having us. De we hope to see you again. Yeah.

Desmond Brown (38:00):

And that's our latest episode of Sold in The 6ix. And we can't stress enough what Beth said, follow that instinct, follow your gut, and that will help you stay out of terrible situations. And I'd like to thank my producer Doug Downs of Stories and Strategies for this latest podcast. And if you liked this podcast, please subscribe, leave a rating and a review and forward it to a friend. If you need to get in touch with me, you can email me at des@desmondbrown.ca and please follow me on all of the social media platforms. And my handle is Des in the 6ix. I'm on Instagram, Twitter, and of course Facebook. Until next time, I'm Desmond Brown.